The sound of βthβ in either and ether are two different sounds β one voiced and one unvoiced. We only think of them the same because we write them the same.
Very true. My point in the article is that the word "eth" is pronounced with the 'th' in "either" β not the 'th' in "ether", which, as you rightly point out, is different.
I think about the ΓΎ and Γ° every time I teach blends in phonics to my students. The distinction between the two sounds would be really helpful for developing readers.
To be honest if the goal is bringing back an alphabet for "th" sound it seems "Γ°" is better than "ΓΎ", no? The alphabet is very distinct.
Also: This is just my opinion, but honestly since "ΓΎ" and wynn looks so similar it probably is better to just use "Γ°" rather than "ΓΎ". If I'm King Alfred or the guy who set up the West Saxon standard I would ditch "ΓΎ" for exclusive use of "Γ°".
I don't believe anyone can get to 14-25 vowels for English without counting (historical) long vowels and diphthongs, and Latin had both of those and nasal vowels. If one counts only the simple monophthongs in Latin, wouldn't it make sense to only count only simple monophthongs as well in (Middle) English, in which case it had 7-10 vowels? And if one includes the diphthongs and long vowels of English as separate vowels, why wouldn't we count all the variations of vowels in Latin? That would triple or quadruple its vowel count, given its long vowels, diphthongs /ae~ΙΛ au eu oe~eΛ ui/, and maybe nasal vowels (depending on whether you would consider them distinct vowels or /Vm/), giving us 14-20 vowels in Latin.
And unsurprisingly, Latin made extensive use of digraphs as well, for the diphthongs (and nasal vowels). It generally didn't distinguish long vowels in writing, however, whereas English did.
Counting vowels is serious business! You're right to point out that counting 5 vowels for Latin is based on some assumptions (counting quality differences only, not counting diphthongs) that aren't shared by the 14β25 vowel count for Modern English (counting diphthongs). Funnily enough, if we expand Latin's vowel count in this way, we end up making the same kind of point, namely that the Etruscan alphabet's five vowel letters were insufficient to account for the many contrastive vowel sounds of Latin.
Thanks for the reply! Yeah, the adaptation of Etruscan letters to Latin does make the same point, haha
Speaking of quality differences for Latin, is the modern consensus that the long and short vowels had the same quality in Classical Latin, contra Allen?
And I must add that I really enjoy the vignettes at the beginning of every post!
Thank you!! And yes, I believe the most up-to-date thinking is that there was no quality distinction between long-short pairs during the classical period.
Especially the opening scene, which I can imagine as in a movie. My favorite line is the alliteration and imagery of "wrestling match between purist and pragmatist playing across the manβs face". And then in the end, you explain how your depiction of Caxton is historical fiction.
As a reading specialist, I found myself teaching beginning phonics to older readers who had been taught with the whole language method. I learned, and then taught, vowel sounds from an adult point of view. Having learned phonics as a small child, this was revolutionary for me. I had to make my students feel like they weren't being babied. So I taught the thorn and the origins of English.
As a lover of words and of history, this topic is like candy for me. Thank you!
This was very interesting and explained so much about the history of our evolved language. Also thank you for giving me the tools to read some of the older literature.
Did you know that in modern phonics (themethod used to teach reading in Primary school) young children in the North of England have no difficulties with the official phonic "a", the flat vowel sound, but children in the South need an adjustment to the phonics scheme, to allow for the Southern pronunciation of a longer "a" sound. This amuses me - as a Northerner who was once endlessly teased in the South for my (correct) pronunciation of of "bath" and "master".
Fascinating. You can actually see the changing of mediaeval English through statues gravestones and the written or printed word. . Even mediaeval has changed to the modern medieval.
The Greek eta is pronounced as the a in apple, with some scholarly disagreement. People who learn ancient Greek from teachers familiar with modern Greek often give epsilon and eta the same pronunciation, as the modern language does. But ancient Greek vowels have a short, middle, and long gradation with epsilon the short vowel, a diphthong like eu as the middle vowel, and eta as the long vowel. There's room for debate as to which long sound eta expressed and what an English equivalent might be, but it has to be a long vowel like the a in apple.
The sound of βthβ in either and ether are two different sounds β one voiced and one unvoiced. We only think of them the same because we write them the same.
Very true. My point in the article is that the word "eth" is pronounced with the 'th' in "either" β not the 'th' in "ether", which, as you rightly point out, is different.
I think about the ΓΎ and Γ° every time I teach blends in phonics to my students. The distinction between the two sounds would be really helpful for developing readers.
I had the same thought. Arenβt they just as distinctive from each other as g and k?
Yes, I think so too.
This is a nice summary, but is there a reason for not mentioning yogh?
Thanks, Chris! Yogh is complicated enough that it needs an article of its own.
I will grant you assoilzie for the omission and await the next installment...
Ah, the poor Thorn. Alackaday!
However, the printing press is still my most cherished tech advancement. It brought knowledge to the people. Huzzah!
But just ΓΎink: today we can have ΓΎem boΓΎ!
To be honest if the goal is bringing back an alphabet for "th" sound it seems "Γ°" is better than "ΓΎ", no? The alphabet is very distinct.
Also: This is just my opinion, but honestly since "ΓΎ" and wynn looks so similar it probably is better to just use "Γ°" rather than "ΓΎ". If I'm King Alfred or the guy who set up the West Saxon standard I would ditch "ΓΎ" for exclusive use of "Γ°".
So how was Jesus written or spoken since the βJβ is relatively new? Especially since Christianity brought the alphabet to England.
What Mary said!
With an "I'.
Did Latin have 5 vowels?
I don't believe anyone can get to 14-25 vowels for English without counting (historical) long vowels and diphthongs, and Latin had both of those and nasal vowels. If one counts only the simple monophthongs in Latin, wouldn't it make sense to only count only simple monophthongs as well in (Middle) English, in which case it had 7-10 vowels? And if one includes the diphthongs and long vowels of English as separate vowels, why wouldn't we count all the variations of vowels in Latin? That would triple or quadruple its vowel count, given its long vowels, diphthongs /ae~ΙΛ au eu oe~eΛ ui/, and maybe nasal vowels (depending on whether you would consider them distinct vowels or /Vm/), giving us 14-20 vowels in Latin.
And unsurprisingly, Latin made extensive use of digraphs as well, for the diphthongs (and nasal vowels). It generally didn't distinguish long vowels in writing, however, whereas English did.
Counting vowels is serious business! You're right to point out that counting 5 vowels for Latin is based on some assumptions (counting quality differences only, not counting diphthongs) that aren't shared by the 14β25 vowel count for Modern English (counting diphthongs). Funnily enough, if we expand Latin's vowel count in this way, we end up making the same kind of point, namely that the Etruscan alphabet's five vowel letters were insufficient to account for the many contrastive vowel sounds of Latin.
Thanks for the reply! Yeah, the adaptation of Etruscan letters to Latin does make the same point, haha
Speaking of quality differences for Latin, is the modern consensus that the long and short vowels had the same quality in Classical Latin, contra Allen?
And I must add that I really enjoy the vignettes at the beginning of every post!
Thank you!! And yes, I believe the most up-to-date thinking is that there was no quality distinction between long-short pairs during the classical period.
Could you explain this for those of us who do not understand the terms?
The joy of reading this! Thanks!
Thank you, Elisabeth!
Love this!
Especially the opening scene, which I can imagine as in a movie. My favorite line is the alliteration and imagery of "wrestling match between purist and pragmatist playing across the manβs face". And then in the end, you explain how your depiction of Caxton is historical fiction.
As a reading specialist, I found myself teaching beginning phonics to older readers who had been taught with the whole language method. I learned, and then taught, vowel sounds from an adult point of view. Having learned phonics as a small child, this was revolutionary for me. I had to make my students feel like they weren't being babied. So I taught the thorn and the origins of English.
As a lover of words and of history, this topic is like candy for me. Thank you!
Thank you, Anne! As an enthusiast of Old English poetry I'm prone to the occasional bout of alliteration here and there...
What a great approach to teaching older learners! Give them some fun historical material to chew on :)
Thank you for this essay! This was a great read about the change in the language. And it appears it still changing.
Thank you for this essay! This was a great read about the change in the language. And it appears it is still changing.
Thank you! And you're right, English is still changing and always will be for as long as it's a living language.
This was very interesting and explained so much about the history of our evolved language. Also thank you for giving me the tools to read some of the older literature.
Did you know that in modern phonics (themethod used to teach reading in Primary school) young children in the North of England have no difficulties with the official phonic "a", the flat vowel sound, but children in the South need an adjustment to the phonics scheme, to allow for the Southern pronunciation of a longer "a" sound. This amuses me - as a Northerner who was once endlessly teased in the South for my (correct) pronunciation of of "bath" and "master".
Thank you! I believe it. And as a Canadian, I'm right there with you on the "bath/master" issue.
Fascinating. You can actually see the changing of mediaeval English through statues gravestones and the written or printed word. . Even mediaeval has changed to the modern medieval.
Not for me it hasn't!
I'm just glad "esthetic" hasn't caught on!
No thatβs not catchy. Itβs just an inability to spell!
I will never tire of these!
Thank you, Joanna!
So fabulous. Thank you.
Thank you, Eva!
Great article - very interesting and informative
Thanks, John!
The Greek eta is pronounced as the a in apple, with some scholarly disagreement. People who learn ancient Greek from teachers familiar with modern Greek often give epsilon and eta the same pronunciation, as the modern language does. But ancient Greek vowels have a short, middle, and long gradation with epsilon the short vowel, a diphthong like eu as the middle vowel, and eta as the long vowel. There's room for debate as to which long sound eta expressed and what an English equivalent might be, but it has to be a long vowel like the a in apple.
An inspired ditty...
The lost English Rosetta Stones , have now fallen into Autumn.
How I yearn with an age,
to release upon my lips,
the thorn, wynn, ash, and eth.
Forever incomunicado,
out of future's grasp,
unembedded,
off the page.
Kind regards,
Michael
Absolutely fascinating.
Thank you.