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Drew Ratter's avatar

The Fimbulwinter. Here in Shetland, the first Neolithic farmers arrived around 3000 BC. Since 10000 BC when the last of the ice melted, there had been no mammals in Shetland but seals. So the birds had created a very lush environment. 7000 years is a long time, and birds are great farmers. The people who arrived then developed through feast and famine through the Bronze Age and the Iron Age. They also saw the very mysterious Broch building period. Then, going on 4000 years after the first people, Celts for want of a better word (I am allergic to "Picts"), in circa 800 AD the Vikings arrived to stay. But the point that is a preamble to is: Who did the Vikings meet when they arrived? There are no pre-Norse placenames. Not a single pre-Norse word in our Shaetlan dialect. The Vkings never mentioned Skraelings here. More recently, many of us with familes stretching back and back have had our DNA read. We all have plenty of Norse(old), but none of us have any trace of pre-Norse dna. A great mystery, which may have been sold by Alan Fraser, Geologist and Meterologist. He looked this business and was astounded to find that nobody had looked at the volcanic activity and consequent climate change, and his answer is, they met no-one. People had either died out, or left, or more likely both. So it was the real Fimbul winter which did for those descendants of the original Shetlanders. In terms of Archaeology, the great archaeological site at Jarlshof has the complete history from the Neolithic to the Vikings to the coming of the Scots in 1469 all preserved perfectly for us to visit whenever we like

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Francis Turner's avatar

If you read the blogs and substacks of paleogeneticists and paleontologists it becomes clear that a lot of human communities died out 100% before others came to replace them.

This book (https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Roman-Britain-Speak-English-ebook/dp/B0B3KWTSYG?ref_=ast_author_mpb ) suggests that during the collapse of the Roman Empire in the 4th/5th century a large part of southern/eastern Britain became almost completely depopulated which the author says is the reason why English is so lacking in Celtic words

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Gálvez Caballero's avatar

Both of these comments were fascinating, could you give me any author or article about the general subject of untimely population dissapearances?

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Francis Turner's avatar

This podcast by Razib Khan and John Hawks is a good start - https://www.razibkhan.com/p/john-hawks-varieties-of-humankind

Then look at both of their substacks for other relevant sorts of article.

I should note that I'm a paid subscriber to Razib Khan's substack so I'm not entirely clear what is paywalled and what isn't. Hawks' substack is not paywalled at all as far as I know - https://www.johnhawks.net/

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Denise Domning's avatar

Perhaps Grendel's mother was Huldra woman. My Norwegian grandmother (born in the USA but didn't speak English until she was 14) often told the story of our "ancestress". Apparently, some great (times 14) grandfather went into the woods and came across an old woman and her beautiful daughter. They let him into their cottage and he decided he wanted to marry the daughter, so he threw his knife over a bucket of milk--and that was it, they were married. He brought her home but was unkind to her, beating her from time to time. When she'd had enough of him, she went into the woods and come home carrying a log that it took 4 men to lift. When she put it down in front of her husband, she said, "If I can do that, imagine what I could do to you if I wanted to." He never beat her again. She also made a promise that all of the women in her line for the next 14 generations would have psychic power, such as second sight, which my grandmother had. I'm at generation 13 and, yes, there's still a little of that psychic stuff going on.

I totally enjoy your posts!

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

Thank you, Denise! And what a great bit of family lore!

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David J. Sharp's avatar

Utterly fascinating! Begs the question: When did the concept of “a fantasy work” begin. Origin of the world tales - if dismissed today - were logical explanations of the inexplicable. Thunder? Earthquakes? Must be gods. Beowulf, as a “history”, is to be expected; pure fantasy as “escape lit” … I don’t know.

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Robert Whitley's avatar

Chretién was the first to write for entertainment and seems to have been targeting a female courtly audience (ie Romans in French or romance). Stefan Jaeger writes in his must-read book Origins of Courtliness that such literature had a civilizing aim though, to sensitize the warrior class (2nd estate) which were his audience in the vernacular. Clerics read and understood Latin. Vernacular romances were likely initially received by illiterates who were read aloud to in a courtly, festive setting.

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David J. Sharp's avatar

I am no expert at all … but doesn’t Arthurian literature extol chivalry as an ideal? If so, fiction … or morality play?

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Robert Whitley's avatar

Chretien de Troyes’ Arthurian Literature is the first fiction. During its initial reception, it may well have been taken at face value, because it refers to real places the recipients knew (London, Galloway, Carlisle, Wales) but interspersed with Tolkien-like fantastic places, Camelot etc although it’s not impossible he may have been referring to a real place lost in translation.

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Benedict's avatar

Not Geoffrey of Monmouth?

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Robert Whitley's avatar

Great question! although he predates Chretién dy a few decades, Geoffrey tried to pass off Historia Regum Britanniae as a historical chronicle. His work does not push in the direction of developing the new 'willing suspension of disbelief' aka Coleridge, nor did it spawn the new genre fiction at all, which Chretién's work did, with spin offs like Wolfram von Eschenbach, Thomas of Britain (or Brittany?), Marie de France etc. These writers were received in a completely different way than Geoffrey. Tbh, I am not even sure about his early reception, or even if he was received (read) by his contemporaries at all. Didn't he write HRB in prison? I doubt it was a huge bestseller at the time, which Chretién & Wolfram were. I will look into it. hmmmm.

I know, Anglophones have a hard time even recognizing French, German & Flemish language Arthur tales exist, never mind that they are primary in a way—as tales for entertainment, i.e. fiction. Geoffrey put himself in the reference section, not novels and poetry.

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Benedict's avatar

Geoffrey certainly popularised “the matter of Britain”, but as you say as purported history. It was certainly read by contemporaries, a number of whom pointed out the obvious problems - they knew Bede and could see that it was a load of Wycliffe’s Leviticus. But the Arthurian myths became wildly popular, notwithstanding the expert opinion.

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Robert Whitley's avatar

The key word in my original comment was “genre”, I mean the literary genre fiction, not fiction as opposed to fact. Sorry, i don’t expect non-literary scientists to use my narrow terminology the same way. I hope I was able to explain what I mean, although its technical. Beowulf is also not of the genre fiction for the same reason as Geoffrey, it lacks all the fictionality signals. Therefore it could not have been received as such.

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Robert Whitley's avatar

Interesting, I study German language Literature, so know little about Geoffrey tbh. Yes, I just looked and there are about 50 manuscripts from the 12th century, making HRB a huge bestseller at the time. A problem in the discussion might be the narrow definition of fiction from literary science I am using, not using it colloquially. Wikipedia obv calls it a fictional account. I just don’t recall him being mentioned in scholarly articles on fictionality and its emergence. There are certain “fictionality signals” (Frank Zipfel), which tell the recipient, “Hey! this is made up, lets have fun! Relax and go with it.”Long form dialogue is a big signal, as are intertextuality, reputations of the poet as a poet, the context of the manuscripts: Continental Arthur Lit is transmitted through magnificent, decorated and very expensive luxury manuscripts meant to show off to courtiers, whereas reference i.e. History, much less so. Interesting question, I will have to delve into Geoffrey. Does he even write poetically? Does he give long form conversational dialogue? Are the manuscripts luxury to pragmatic? The above signals are musts for fiction. Then there is the issue of Latin as opposed to the vernacular. Latin was holy and not for messing around at the time, whereas the vernacular was looser.

Geoffrey is certainly considered fiction today, but when looking at the origins of the genre fiction, we have to look at how contemporary recipients received it. I was wrong about him not being a bestseller, so will explore it, thanks.

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Robert Whitley's avatar

Fiction as a genre would not exist until Chretién de Troyes

Problem solved

Before then, if it was on parchment, it was the truth. Writing was holy, so it was impossible that it could lie, tell fabula like was done in oral traditionals.

The truth aspect in the Middle Ages was found in the moral teaching, the exemplum offered. In Beowulf, its good vs evil. Factuality or the lack of it were not things yet. Deviation from what we moderns understand as “facts” was not a problem for the medieval mind and did not detract from the truth aspect. This goes for historical chronicles too. Fact and fiction are yet to be dichotomous during the Beowulf poet’s (obv a cleric) lifetime.

It drives me crazy how SubStack medieval History often takes medieval chronicles to be the same genre as today’s works of History, and supposes that its writers then and now had the same objective and methods.

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Anne Wendel's avatar

It always disturbs me when people ascribe modern opinions to past actions; on the flip side, it always fascinates me when I find out ancient opinions that explain past actions were entirely differently motivated than I had thought!

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Robert Whitley's avatar

This discussion moved me to read Tolkien‘s The Monsters and the Critics, in which he laments that historians just mine Beowulf for historical „facts“ while disregarding its poetic greatness and entirely missing the point. Medieval writers are nothing like modern authors and medieval literary works fulfill totally different functions. There was no literature market like today. Yes, it can drive you nuts when ppl are dissapointed they can’t find a medieval Anïas Nin, and then claim they can’t because she must have been „erased“, whatever that is supposed to mean. They are not to be reasoned with obv.

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Robert Whitley's avatar

Are you thinking of a specific example?

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Paul Bivand's avatar

I wonder how far removed in time the historical elements of the story are from Offa of Angeln - remembering that Angles and Jutes were both neighbours of the Danes pre- migration. Were the Jutes west germanic speakers? Assuming that the Angles were when they were in the area.

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

It's probable that the Offa mentioned in Beowulf (around line 1950) is actually Offa of Angeln.

The Jutes of the time were likely West Germanic speakers, as they are identified as being part of the migration that led to the formation of Old English. Later, however, Jutland became inhabited by North Germanic speakers. (That's the version of the story that makes most sense to me, at least!) It's also possible that this replacement had already happened by the 5th–6th century. It's all a bit uncertain still.

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Francis Turner's avatar

The Jutes came, AIUI, from Jutland (aka the peninsular part of Denmark) so they probably spoke a language close to Danish/Norse

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Stuart Armstrong's avatar

>What luck that Beowulf survived for us to read! We would be much poorer if, by some quirk of fate, it had fallen victim to fire or flood, or lay forgotten behind a bookshelf somewhere.

And what bad luck that other texts are lost to us, victims of fire or flood or lying forgotten behind a bookshelf somewhere! Texts that might have had as much meaning or more.

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

If you ever need to cry on command, just remember that!

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Robert Whitley's avatar

Makes you wonder about equally great poetic works on parchment which were lost, recycled or destroyed. In German language, there is exactly one example of heroic literature from the Early Middle Ages surviving, Hildebrandslied. It is relatively short too and it ends abruptly, as though its conclusion was lost.

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Francis Turner's avatar

One of the fun things about various Japanese myths is that they are often extremely precise about where certain events happened. For example the Kami (god) Susanoo battled the 8 headed dragon Yamata no Orochi near the source of the Hiikawa river and I've been there, as it's only an hours drive from where I live. When it happened? That's a little trickier, but probably also in the 5th century or maybe a little earlier.

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

I found Irish legend to be similar as well. It's amazing to be able to walk in those same places today.

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Elaine elfEars's avatar

Grettir's Saga is not the only Icelandic story with parallels to the Old English poem. The hero Bodvar Bjarni, in the Saga of Hrolf Kraki, also shares similarities with Beowulf

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

I highly recommend people read the Bǫðvarr Bjarki episode in the Saga of Hrólf Kraki: not only is it a great Beowulf parallel, but it's also hilarious.

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Blackthorn's avatar

Thanks for an engaging read! Please do carry on.

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

Thank you!

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Juan's avatar

I just attended the book club session and when discussing Sigemund you mentioned something about the duty of the dragon-slayer in sharing the treasure, of "putting the gold in circulation". Here you refer to the formerly Roman gold being in circulation through Europe and into Scandinavia. Is there any connection that can be made between the two or is it purely coincidental?

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

I believe it's not a coincidence. How I see it: Roman gold helped keep the system of lord-retainer relationships moving. Once it dried up, it caused an existential threat to that way of life, which is a way of life Beowulf both celebrates and laments the loss of.

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Juan's avatar

Thanks! Do you have book about these events that you'd recommend?

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

This one is definitely opinionated but also gives a great overview of the era: https://www.routledge.com/The-Northern-Routes-to-Kingship-A-History-of-Scandinavia-AD-180-550/Skre/p/book/9781138831384

Fair warning: it's pretty scholarly in places!

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Juan's avatar

Thanks again!

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Robert Whitley's avatar

A great post! and I agree with the approach to the historical elements in Beowulf. Gotland is fascinating and came up in my research, albeit in the High Middle Ages. It was the place where the Low German speaking merchants, who had a trading outpost or enclave in Novgorod, would meet to exchange the keys to the outpost. The Peter-Hof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterhof_(Novgorod)

There would be a Summer group and a Winter group and they took manning the trading post in turns. They would meet on Gotland to hand over the keys to each other, while the Peterhof was left empty twice a year for a short spell. I noticed that Gotland had a special significance or mystique to it. I would not be surprised if it went way back.

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

Thank you! That's extremely interesting, re: the exchanging of the keys. I'd like one day to go there to look at some of the sites Gräslund discusses (at great length) in his book, with the aim of matching them with descriptions from the poem. There's also some interesting information in "The Nordic Beowulf" about later Gutnish traditions, which you might find interesting as well.

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

(I was in a competition for how many times I could mention the word "interesting" in a single paragraph)

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Robert Whitley's avatar

Thanks for the recommendation, Beowulf is one if those vast subjects, about which the literature is too voluminous to get an overview of. Yes, I have wanted to go to Gotland too. The closest I have been is Wismar on the Baltic, which is beautiful blue. Its so much more beautiful than one imagines looking at the map. In the summer at least.

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Robert Whitley's avatar

After a posting hiatus, I am planning a new post now with the “otherness” of the Middle Ages as a theme. I feel like this aspect of the Middle Ages is greatly under-appreciated. The medieval world and mind is just vastly different than ours. What confronts us with this reality of medieval otherness more than Beowulf? It’s what fascinates us about the enigmatic work, but also puts us off.

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

Agree that the strangeness of this period is very under-discussed. And this is aided and abetted by the translation practices popular today, which tend to domesticate the text. I look forward to reading your post!

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Robert Whitley's avatar

There’s a German academic word for otherness, Alterität, which captures the phenomenon better than otherness in English imo. (Theres also Fremdheit, Anderssein etc closer to foreignness). Different than strangeness, this otherness means a certain inaccessibility to us. If something is strange, its foreign, its unusual maybe. But its here. Otherness means we can’t even interact with it, its opaque, we are at a loss to even grasp it. We have to go into Beowulf expecting it to be much more than strange, which the human mind struggles with, even when it is prepared to try. Otherness is something we have to accept that we cant penetrate. Its definitely why Beowulf is so controversial and that so many debates about it are never resolved. They can’t be. Tolkien deals with its otherness in The Monsters and the Critics. He calls it monstrousness, which you touched on about the dragon and mythical creatures, and our inability to orient ourselves to them.

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Eugine Nier's avatar

> It was initiated by the fall of the Western Roman Empire, an event which, although only completed in AD 476, was well underway by AD 400. It’s a period marked by an influx of gold into Scandinavia, gold which originated in territories once occupied by the Roman Empire.

This is the kind of passive voice euphemism I'd expect to see on CNN.

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

Now you have me imagining 24-hour Roman cable news...

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Dr Janice Jones's avatar

Very enjoyable read - particularlythe parallels between similar hero/monster tellings. The visual power of blood in the tumult of a waterfall makes for great storytelling & suspense…

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

Thank you! That's the kind of detail that sounds like it evolved under the pressure to tell engaging stories.

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Drew Ratter's avatar

PS. I love your substack

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

Thank you!

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Sandra Greer's avatar

I'm waiting to hear how this Scandinavian tale ended up in Old English! Is there an older version in some other language?

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Colin Gorrie's avatar

There's no older version than Beowulf. In fact, Beowulf is the oldest version of many of the stories mentioned obliquely in the text.

As for how it got to England, that's another big mystery! Many scholars believe that parts of these stories were circulating in oral tradition for a long time before eventually being written down in England. Others (a minority) believe that they first took shape in Scandinavia and were brought to England by a travelling poet.

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Robert Whitley's avatar

Medieval ppl would latch onto the truth behind the moral teachings and not sweat the lack of factuality, because fact and fiction either don’t exist quite yet, or it’s not fully understood yet. The ability of the willing suspension of disbelief is just forming. Fiction is emerging with Chretién. Exactly, chivalry is a big message, which actually suggests it was not always practiced, it was more an ideal than a reality maybe?

This post I wrote mentions both Beowulf and Arthurian literature https://open.substack.com/pub/robertwhitley/p/the-waters-and-liminal-encounters?r=2mwz1j&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

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