I’m seeing a considerable amount of Old English in the Yorkshire (Bradford) dialect of my grandparents and great grandparents, particularly the men. Owt (owiht) and nowt (nawiht), Hast tha? Dost tha? Canst tha? Ofcumden (incomer not born here) bairn (child) and throstle (song thrush) come to mind, to say nothing of thou, thee and thine. Their dialect would have been barely intelligeable to an ofcumden. It was mostly the women of the family who worked in t’mill.
A query: is “sorted” really right for that time and place? Prior to 1980 at the very earliest I was only ever familiar with “to sort out”, “sorting out” and “sorted out”. I started to notice “sorted” being used that way without the “out” only after personal computers had become widespread and people had become familiar with the process of sorting data into ordered lists. When a sort had been completed, this would typically be signalled by the message “Sorted!”
The sentence reminded me of Chicago, which experienced extensive immigration in the late nineteenth century: “Imagine your city or town ballooning in size such that, within a generation, the majority of the population had been born in different parts of the country, or in a different country altogether.” Chicago is famous for particular aspects of pronunciation (as immortalized in a catch phrase from a famous Saturday Night Live routine: “Da Bearss”). I don’t know enough about linguistic development there, but I suspect a similar phenomenon was at work there, too.
You're probably right! There are surely similar stories to tell in American cities, many of which underwent the same explosive growth, although I haven't studied Chicago in particular (yet).
> So, how did it end up in Scouse? Perhaps some r-less southern English dialects were part of the mix that contributed to the Liverpool melting pot. Maybe the speakers of the new accent emerging from the koineization process wanted to associate themselves with what they saw as the higher-prestige accents of southern England.
I wonder — how familiar are people back then with London English? If people generally are familiar with it, this might not be a prestige thing, instead more that if you encounter someone you don't know, you adjust your speech to be more like a speech type most people are familiar with, which would (hypothetically) be the nonrhotic London English.
That may be! It's also true that we don't have solid evidence that Scouse was non-rhotic from its early days, so non-rhoticity may have developed a few generations in for this reason (or the prestige reason).
Great article, thanks for researching and posting. I’d never put two and two together before to realise that technological revolution is the true driver of dialect and accent change.
One interesting Scouserism is the word "like" being put at the end of a sentence, like.
Not only do they do it a lot, the k seems quite distinctively different with a kind of trailing h rather like the ch in the scottish loch. The example video didn't cover that sound either
Yes, the "k" turning into the sound of Scottish "loch" is classic Scouse! I wish I could have got an example: It turns out to be quite hard to find accent videos that aren't just exaggerations by comedians, so I'm very grateful for AccentBase! But, given individual variation, it's sometimes hard to find one speaker who has all the "classic" features (and good audio quality).
I’ve noticed changes in the pronunciation of place names. San Francisco, originally a Spanish mission & presidio, has many Spanish street names. However, due to the influx of immigrants during the Gold Rush, pronunciation changed. Now, with a significant Hispanic population, pronunciation is reverting closer to the original Spanish. For example, “Valencia Street” is pronounced “Valen-SHA” by the old timers and as “ Val-LEN-Sia” by the largely Hispanic current residents.
Myself, I have never experienced anyone using “stan” in any context at all, and if I had seen it in any kind of article I would have had to rely on context to give me meaning. Then again, I avoid pop-culture and have quit using (most) social media platforms, so likely I’m out of the loop.
I’m seeing a considerable amount of Old English in the Yorkshire (Bradford) dialect of my grandparents and great grandparents, particularly the men. Owt (owiht) and nowt (nawiht), Hast tha? Dost tha? Canst tha? Ofcumden (incomer not born here) bairn (child) and throstle (song thrush) come to mind, to say nothing of thou, thee and thine. Their dialect would have been barely intelligeable to an ofcumden. It was mostly the women of the family who worked in t’mill.
That is some beautiful Old English! Thank you for sharing!
Small comment on your little dialogue example. Your Welshman would have recognised forming the past with 'after', as that's a common celtic feature.
Very nice!
A query: is “sorted” really right for that time and place? Prior to 1980 at the very earliest I was only ever familiar with “to sort out”, “sorting out” and “sorted out”. I started to notice “sorted” being used that way without the “out” only after personal computers had become widespread and people had become familiar with the process of sorting data into ordered lists. When a sort had been completed, this would typically be signalled by the message “Sorted!”
Good eye for detail! I looked in the OED and it seems that you're right! 1945 is the earliest instance they have for that usage: army slang.
Interesting! I suspected there might have been some earlier usage in a limited context.
The sentence reminded me of Chicago, which experienced extensive immigration in the late nineteenth century: “Imagine your city or town ballooning in size such that, within a generation, the majority of the population had been born in different parts of the country, or in a different country altogether.” Chicago is famous for particular aspects of pronunciation (as immortalized in a catch phrase from a famous Saturday Night Live routine: “Da Bearss”). I don’t know enough about linguistic development there, but I suspect a similar phenomenon was at work there, too.
You're probably right! There are surely similar stories to tell in American cities, many of which underwent the same explosive growth, although I haven't studied Chicago in particular (yet).
I have to assume that you're familiar with Gretchen McCulloch's book "Because Internet"—? (It occurs to me that you might be well acquainted, even)
Yes, I am, and eagerly awaiting a sequel!
> So, how did it end up in Scouse? Perhaps some r-less southern English dialects were part of the mix that contributed to the Liverpool melting pot. Maybe the speakers of the new accent emerging from the koineization process wanted to associate themselves with what they saw as the higher-prestige accents of southern England.
I wonder — how familiar are people back then with London English? If people generally are familiar with it, this might not be a prestige thing, instead more that if you encounter someone you don't know, you adjust your speech to be more like a speech type most people are familiar with, which would (hypothetically) be the nonrhotic London English.
That may be! It's also true that we don't have solid evidence that Scouse was non-rhotic from its early days, so non-rhoticity may have developed a few generations in for this reason (or the prestige reason).
Great article, thanks for researching and posting. I’d never put two and two together before to realise that technological revolution is the true driver of dialect and accent change.
Thanks, Paul!
One interesting Scouserism is the word "like" being put at the end of a sentence, like.
Not only do they do it a lot, the k seems quite distinctively different with a kind of trailing h rather like the ch in the scottish loch. The example video didn't cover that sound either
Yes, the "k" turning into the sound of Scottish "loch" is classic Scouse! I wish I could have got an example: It turns out to be quite hard to find accent videos that aren't just exaggerations by comedians, so I'm very grateful for AccentBase! But, given individual variation, it's sometimes hard to find one speaker who has all the "classic" features (and good audio quality).
Fascinating…love History, Industrial Revolution and Language, and family links with da 'Pool!
I love your articles!
I’ve noticed changes in the pronunciation of place names. San Francisco, originally a Spanish mission & presidio, has many Spanish street names. However, due to the influx of immigrants during the Gold Rush, pronunciation changed. Now, with a significant Hispanic population, pronunciation is reverting closer to the original Spanish. For example, “Valencia Street” is pronounced “Valen-SHA” by the old timers and as “ Val-LEN-Sia” by the largely Hispanic current residents.
Myself, I have never experienced anyone using “stan” in any context at all, and if I had seen it in any kind of article I would have had to rely on context to give me meaning. Then again, I avoid pop-culture and have quit using (most) social media platforms, so likely I’m out of the loop.