I live in Sweden, and have for nearly 45 years. My mother tongue is English, but I speak very fluent Swedish. My wife is from rural northern Sweden, but we met in southern Sweden where I worked as an archeologist/dendrochronologist. My laboratory "boss" there was Danish, and spoke barely comprehensible Swedish. Now to the language point: when my wife and my boss would meet, they had great difficulty in comprehending each other, partly because as native Danish/Swedish speakers they had a "default expectation" as to how the language(s) SHOULD sound/be. Whereas for me, as a non-native speaker, the languages were peculiar variations on each other. Often I was forced to act as a kind of translator. Moreover, when my boss and I would work on projects in other dialectic districts of Sweden (eg. Dalarna or Gotland) I would act as a translator between my boss and the locals. This went even to the point where one would sometimes listen then ask me, "what did he say?" IOW, not having a native speaker's "ear" in these cases was of benefit. However, when working in Norway this was seldom a problem, the languages being somewhat more comprehensible to each other. Except when....oh, wow!
I had a close friend from Glasgow, working class geezer from Govan. When he would have a few beers, his English could/would become incomprehensible to all of his various English-speaking mates from around the rest of the world. I have also heard that a few years back there was a problem with elevators that used voice recognition for orders: they could understand a German or a Frenchman that said, "floor six, please", but not someone with a Scottish accent. Love it! Ain't language grand!?!
As kids, my brother and I (and Mom) were always amused at Formula 1 races on TV when the race would get exciting, and Jackie Stewart's commentary became unintelligible as his voice got higher-pitched and faster. Good thing there wasn't closed-captioning back then or the poor captioner would simply have given up and typed "Excited Glaswegian."
The single oddest accent I ever heard was from a young man whose native language was Mandarin who'd learned English in Glasgow.
I too have had to be a translator between Englishes in Glasgow. And once in San Francisco, when some Chinese ladies couldn't understand the Black Southern bus driver and vice versa. I could understand both of them fine, though, and have a generic American accent so communication was made.
I once shared an office with a Chinese co-worker. Another employee would come in, he would talk to her, and I would turn around and say something. She confessed that she deduced what he said from what I said.
Did the same at my job, translating Swedish-English & Cubano-English.
Side note: my boss was from an island between Sweden & Denmark. He told me that although he spoke Swedish, his accent made it easier for Danes to understand him than Swedes from Goteborg and Northern Sweden. He also admitted he had trouble understanding English when spoken with a Southern accent.
It seems to be a bit less of a problem with the younger generation; I had an online friend from Norway and another from Denmark and when they met up, they happily chatted in their own languages. Except for when that failed, and then they'd use the English word. They both made fun of Swedish.
As a native Texan if you need clarification regarding what is or isn’t English, come on down for a visit, we’ll straighten you out. Seriously I was once at a meeting of foreign Christian missionaries with many foreign natives who had learned English as a second language d language. Seated at a table of eight we were able to converse pretty well…except the guy seated on my right. I asked where he was from. The Bronx!
"This isn’t anything to lose sleep over, unless you’re a particularly neurotic linguist. Not having a universally applicable definition for “language” isn’t going to bring the field of linguistics to a halt any more than the species problem prevents biologists from doing biology."
Defining language, dialects, varieties is fascinating for me, though I am not neurotic enough to lose sleep of not having a universally applicable definition of language.
Really interesting post! I read a short book a while back by Susan Oosthuizen, The Emergence of the English, which puts forward some interesting theories in this field. Like some of the other comments mention the archaeological evidence is still rather mystifying...
Another brilliant exposition! I'm a TV/Film/Voice actor, a profession all too guilty of claiming to speak a language we don't really speak... I resonate with Matthias von Wicht's idea of being understood in an urgent situation.
I'm studying OE (with more than a little help from Ōsweald)... do get in touch when the audiobook version of Ōsweald Bera is in development!
Part of the problem is archaeological - there are comparisons between material culture found in England and on the North Sea coastal area from Jutland through to Holland, but, so far as I can see, not enough distinction to say where within that area.
A potential source of confusion is that the Romans called troublesome pirates 'saxons', and this usage may underlie the continuation in Welsh and Gaelic rather than actually identifying people coming from (Lower) Saxony.
As it seems in the period of Gildas, germanic rule was confined to unknown but defined parts of England after the time of Ambrosius (or maybe Arthur), some naming by Brittonic speakers may be possible - the Brittonic names of the earliest Wessex Kings shows things were not particularly simple, also argument as to whether the name of Penda of Mercia was English or Brittonic, as it's unique.
Mutual intelligibility is all the more fun in that it's clearly not a switch. You are understood by all the villages for three days' travel, although one or two have funny usages (see American and British misunderstandings over "corn"), six days' has conversation fumbling a bit, and through having great difficulty in communicating at all before you get to mutually unintelligible.
I once spent a week in the inner Hebrides at a gathering of people from all over the world, who had some kind of English as a first language. We all got along fine, but by the end of the week all our vowels had become schwa and I didn't bat an eye when a Houston TX woman I'd met asked "Y'all goin' to the loo?"
Speaking of Duolingo and dead languages, I was amused at one point when working through the short Latin course for fun, I realized I had learned exactly how to describe that scene in "The Big Lebowski" where the bad guys throw the ferret in The Dude's tub. That CAN'T have been accidental.
My high school boyfriend went on a school trip to Spain. In rural areas, confusion reigned, because rural Spanish really isn't like the middle/upper-class Mexican Spanish he was fluent in -- because that's what they teach in American schools.
I live in Sweden, and have for nearly 45 years. My mother tongue is English, but I speak very fluent Swedish. My wife is from rural northern Sweden, but we met in southern Sweden where I worked as an archeologist/dendrochronologist. My laboratory "boss" there was Danish, and spoke barely comprehensible Swedish. Now to the language point: when my wife and my boss would meet, they had great difficulty in comprehending each other, partly because as native Danish/Swedish speakers they had a "default expectation" as to how the language(s) SHOULD sound/be. Whereas for me, as a non-native speaker, the languages were peculiar variations on each other. Often I was forced to act as a kind of translator. Moreover, when my boss and I would work on projects in other dialectic districts of Sweden (eg. Dalarna or Gotland) I would act as a translator between my boss and the locals. This went even to the point where one would sometimes listen then ask me, "what did he say?" IOW, not having a native speaker's "ear" in these cases was of benefit. However, when working in Norway this was seldom a problem, the languages being somewhat more comprehensible to each other. Except when....oh, wow!
Just thought I'd throw this out there.
I know a guy who once had to act as an English-to-English translator, when speakers hailed from The Bronx and Glasgow.
I had a close friend from Glasgow, working class geezer from Govan. When he would have a few beers, his English could/would become incomprehensible to all of his various English-speaking mates from around the rest of the world. I have also heard that a few years back there was a problem with elevators that used voice recognition for orders: they could understand a German or a Frenchman that said, "floor six, please", but not someone with a Scottish accent. Love it! Ain't language grand!?!
That last one might have been a skit.
It rings a faint bell -- I remember seeing it.
As kids, my brother and I (and Mom) were always amused at Formula 1 races on TV when the race would get exciting, and Jackie Stewart's commentary became unintelligible as his voice got higher-pitched and faster. Good thing there wasn't closed-captioning back then or the poor captioner would simply have given up and typed "Excited Glaswegian."
The single oddest accent I ever heard was from a young man whose native language was Mandarin who'd learned English in Glasgow.
I too have had to be a translator between Englishes in Glasgow. And once in San Francisco, when some Chinese ladies couldn't understand the Black Southern bus driver and vice versa. I could understand both of them fine, though, and have a generic American accent so communication was made.
I once shared an office with a Chinese co-worker. Another employee would come in, he would talk to her, and I would turn around and say something. She confessed that she deduced what he said from what I said.
Did the same at my job, translating Swedish-English & Cubano-English.
Side note: my boss was from an island between Sweden & Denmark. He told me that although he spoke Swedish, his accent made it easier for Danes to understand him than Swedes from Goteborg and Northern Sweden. He also admitted he had trouble understanding English when spoken with a Southern accent.
It seems to be a bit less of a problem with the younger generation; I had an online friend from Norway and another from Denmark and when they met up, they happily chatted in their own languages. Except for when that failed, and then they'd use the English word. They both made fun of Swedish.
Wow indeed! That's really interesting — thank you for sharing!
As a native Texan if you need clarification regarding what is or isn’t English, come on down for a visit, we’ll straighten you out. Seriously I was once at a meeting of foreign Christian missionaries with many foreign natives who had learned English as a second language d language. Seated at a table of eight we were able to converse pretty well…except the guy seated on my right. I asked where he was from. The Bronx!
"Ey, I'm talkin' here!" :D
"This isn’t anything to lose sleep over, unless you’re a particularly neurotic linguist. Not having a universally applicable definition for “language” isn’t going to bring the field of linguistics to a halt any more than the species problem prevents biologists from doing biology."
Defining language, dialects, varieties is fascinating for me, though I am not neurotic enough to lose sleep of not having a universally applicable definition of language.
Really interesting post! I read a short book a while back by Susan Oosthuizen, The Emergence of the English, which puts forward some interesting theories in this field. Like some of the other comments mention the archaeological evidence is still rather mystifying...
I'll have to check that one out!
Another brilliant exposition! I'm a TV/Film/Voice actor, a profession all too guilty of claiming to speak a language we don't really speak... I resonate with Matthias von Wicht's idea of being understood in an urgent situation.
I'm studying OE (with more than a little help from Ōsweald)... do get in touch when the audiobook version of Ōsweald Bera is in development!
Part of the problem is archaeological - there are comparisons between material culture found in England and on the North Sea coastal area from Jutland through to Holland, but, so far as I can see, not enough distinction to say where within that area.
A potential source of confusion is that the Romans called troublesome pirates 'saxons', and this usage may underlie the continuation in Welsh and Gaelic rather than actually identifying people coming from (Lower) Saxony.
As it seems in the period of Gildas, germanic rule was confined to unknown but defined parts of England after the time of Ambrosius (or maybe Arthur), some naming by Brittonic speakers may be possible - the Brittonic names of the earliest Wessex Kings shows things were not particularly simple, also argument as to whether the name of Penda of Mercia was English or Brittonic, as it's unique.
Excellent points all, but especially regarding the Saxon nomenclature.
Mutual intelligibility is all the more fun in that it's clearly not a switch. You are understood by all the villages for three days' travel, although one or two have funny usages (see American and British misunderstandings over "corn"), six days' has conversation fumbling a bit, and through having great difficulty in communicating at all before you get to mutually unintelligible.
Given that intelligibility is asymmetric, gradient, and contextual, it becomes almost as hard to define as language...
Or species. There are no doubt regions of sub-par fertility before the species in, say, a ring species, can't interbreed.
I once spent a week in the inner Hebrides at a gathering of people from all over the world, who had some kind of English as a first language. We all got along fine, but by the end of the week all our vowels had become schwa and I didn't bat an eye when a Houston TX woman I'd met asked "Y'all goin' to the loo?"
Always fascinating, Colin!
Speaking of Duolingo and dead languages, I was amused at one point when working through the short Latin course for fun, I realized I had learned exactly how to describe that scene in "The Big Lebowski" where the bad guys throw the ferret in The Dude's tub. That CAN'T have been accidental.
That last paragraph reminds me of a recent Hank Green video: https://youtu.be/-C3lR3pczjo
Contrary to what you may be expecting, he argues that sharks aren't fish!
Oh, I'm going to enjoy this
If you do taxonomy by descent, if sharks are fish, so are we.
I thought you were going to go here with your fish reference!
https://www.nosuchthingasafish.com/
Yesterday, when all my troubles seemed so far away.
Asymmetric intelligibility is a fascinating topic, probably worth a post or two.
Spanish has a lot of it - it's easier for speakers of Portuguese, Gallego, Catalan, and Argentine Spanish to understand Castilian than vice versa.
My high school boyfriend went on a school trip to Spain. In rural areas, confusion reigned, because rural Spanish really isn't like the middle/upper-class Mexican Spanish he was fluent in -- because that's what they teach in American schools.
"Still waiting on the Proto-Germanic Duolingo course"
me, too.